Need a little help
Thursday, October 1, 2009 at 1:29PM My next Adult Bible Study will be on the Standards of the Reformed Church. Fun huh? In my preparations I like to imagine questions people might have. Here is one that I think might come up.
How do we reconcile Heidelberg Q&A 20?
Question 20. Will all people then be saved through Christ just as they were lost through Adam?
Answer. No. Only those are saved who by true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all his blessings.
With 1 Corinthians 15:
20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. 21For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Looking for suggestions....
Justin
Reader Comments (18)
Justin,
I found this to be a clear, faithful examination of the above text:
“The word "all" in the Bible is not always to be taken in the absolute sense--meaning every individual without exception. Mark 1:5 has "all" of the people of Jerusalem going out to see John the Baptist. Obviously Mark doesn't mean every single person in Jerusalem. The word all often means "all of some kinds" or "some of all kinds." So when Paul says that Christ brought "justification that brings life for all men," he is making a reference to both Jews and Gentiles being saved--some of all kinds and not just the Jews, God's first chosen people.
Therefore we see that Paul's point is that the effects of Adam's sin and Christ's righteousness reach "all men," meaning that the **effects** do not apply only to Jews, but extend to Jews and Gentiles alike. This is in accordance with what Paul has been saying since 1:5--that all men, Jew and Gentile alike, stand on equal level before God because of their sin, and all must come to God in the same way--through Jesus.
Verses like 1 Corinthians 15:22, which say "As in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive," are also appealed to. But the all who are made alive in this passage (and others like it) is equivalent to all who belong to Christ, not all people without exception. This is because "In Christ all will be made alive" qualifies the expression "each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruites; then, when he comes, those who belong to Him." This expression clearly defines who the all is that Paul is talking about--all "who belong to Christ." Paul is describing the manner through which death and life came--death through Adam and life through Christ. All who die, die in Adam. All who live, live in Christ. When we look further at the context, we also see that verses 1:18; 5:13; 6:9 are clear that everyone does not belong to Christ.”
I trust this helps,
Jeremy Visser
Jeremy...it is a little helpful but....
First..I would hope that we wouldn't change the meaning of all in the same sentence....I checked the greek...the same word is used for all both times...
Second...if the final thing Christ conquers is death then those who are perishing would no longer perish....
All the references you gave in Corinthians could be read in temporal sense...not an eternal sense....
I teach a tough crowd....
Justin
First, I have to disagree with Jeremy (sorry Jeremy) - although it's an argument I've frequently heard. It's convienient, but there's no qualification in the 1st Corinthians passage as far as I can find. The "all"s seem pretty clear and I'm not into theological gymnastics when dear ol' Occam seems to do the job well enough.
From my perspective (I hope we get some good discussion here...), it seems clear that Paul is talking about the human experience of physical death rather than spiritual death. Paul doesn't always clarify "physical realities" from "spiritual" ones. (Not, of course, to cross over into dualism... but there is a difference in this context.)
Because of Christ, all humanity (elect or reprobate) will be resurrected. Their status post-resurrection, however, is differently determined. So... Death through Adam, Life through Christ --> to ALL humanity. Justification & Sanctification to the elect.
Grace and Peace,
`tim
Justin: You might consider incorporating Jesus' parable of the tares and the wheat from Matthew 13 (both the parable and the explanation) into your bible study. Jesus' simple teaching is what Paul often expounded upon. Therefore, to understand Paul better, one needs to go back to the Gospels and hear it from the Master Himself.
God bless you,
KD
Tim.
I agree, “all” means “all,” I was simply noting that the “all” is informed by the contents of this letter and the consistent teaching that is given throughout the Scriptures. In addition, I have heard your analysis before and believe that it holds great value in this discussion.
Justin,
I hear the fear in your question that the “tough” group might see a contradiction between the Heidelberg and Scriptures; specifically, I Corinthians 15:22. I isolate that verse because of the use of the word “all” and it’s often misused to promote universalism (That underlying interpretation (universalism) is what I was addressing in my first comment). If I were in your shoes (and the conversation turns to universalism), I would walk them through the internal unity of the Heidelberg and Scriptures, as well as there mutual unity with one another. For example…
[The Catechism]
Simply put, the content of the Catechism makes an implicit distinction between those who express faith and those who do not. The very fact that the Catechism gives distinctions or qualifiers on true faith (Q/A -21) implies that there are those who do not express true faith. Therefore, we see that the Catechism is consistent within itself but your question remains is it in contradiction with the scriptures (esp. I Cor. 15:22).
Also see: LD 3 (showing the depravity and inability of man) LD 4 (showing the righteousness and holiness of God) LD 5,6 (showing the mediatorial work of Christ in the Gospel) which all demand union with Christ in order to be reconciled.
[The Scriptures]
Let us then take a look at I Corinthians itself. Let us assume that the first reader had ONLY the first letter to the Corinthians. Would he or she assume a universal interpretation of 15:22 or the exclusive view that I am advocating for. From I Corinthians 1:21-24 we see a distinction made between the unbelieving Jews and Greeks and true believers, even though it is from both groups that believers are called by God. Verse 21 in and of itself denotes that the ones who are saved are those who believe, implying that those who do not believe in Christ are not saved. This in consistent with what I quoted in my first entry, yet drawing from the context of I Corinthians alone.
1:18 says, “For the Word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it s the power of God.” Here again is a clear distinction between two paths that are offered universally to Adam’s descendents, yet it is clear contextually that not all will choose the path of the gospel.
[Conclusion]
Simply put, if your bible study is giving you a tough time on the use of the word, “all”, walk them through the context of Corinthians (showing distinctions) as well as the greater teaching of Scripture on wheats and tares, sheeps and wolves, seed of the woman and seed of the serpent, true teachers and false teachers. (again, assuming you're going to get hit with universalism).
No one likes to makes distinction like this because it inevitably means that there are going to be those who fall into the foolish/tare/wolf/seed of the serpent/false teacher category. However, we are called to submit to the teachings of Scripture rather then itch the ears of those who see the cross as foolishness.
Ultimately, if you are not having to respond to the charge of universalism, then much of the above is mute to your inquires. At this point, see Tim’s comment. ;-)
While I do agree with the first part of Jeremy's comments in the sense that the word "all" in Mark 1:5 is not to be taking in it's absolute since just like the word "world" in John 3:17 does not mean every person " world might be saved". I would have to agree with Tim in saying that all men means every single man will be made alive in Christ through resurrection. So the key is the word alive and since I think no one is trying to teach universalism here our only conclusion must be that all will be raised from the dead some to eternal life some to eternal punishment "Hell" .
Rev - 11:20
To be clear,
My initial quote came out of a desire to "reconcile" HC # 20 and I Cor 15:22 against the common call to universalism from that text. I completely agree with Tim's analysis but chose my response to Justin's question based on the pretty good chance that he will face the question of universalism. Again, if no one brings it up then my comment(s) are mute, but I've never come across that passage without someone asking the question (especially when you compare it to HC # 20).
Justin...do you think your group will hit you up on this or pass right over?
I live in the most diverse section of our planet, there are many different people, faiths, Christian traditions, sects....universalism has come up and will come up (I recognize that this is true in less diverse and populated locations, but when you are surrounded by millions of people it is hard not to wonder.) If this study doesn't spark the conversation, something else will.
The people that I encounter in my church and community are serious students of the Bible, seekers, agnostics...etc...all kinds.
As I encounter and engage many faithful people, I find some are universalists, some not, and often for both groups simple, "clear cut" answers about who is eternally saved do not suffice. The fact is that through their faithful study of the Bible many see a Universalistic possibility in the words of Scripture and also a possibility that not all are saved.
So I guess I ask this question in this forum for many reasons.
One, is to see how other Reformed folk work through this cause other reformed folk are/will ask.
Two, is to let those who read this blog know that we as Reformed folk are willing to engage this topic.
Three, to engage people outside my context on this issue.
Four, it is not about sex.
Hope this helps our discussion.
Justin
After another night's sleep I have some more thoughts....though a blog seems so inadequate a medium to me to bear with my thinking this through, this hypothetical question in class.
I like to look at things from multiple angles and I am more of a talker than a writer.....just ask my Seminary professors.....
So moving forward..dare I play Devil's Advocate?
In the Reformed Tradition we say that Scripture interprets Scripture. Classically we have used passages like the wheat and the tares, sheep goats to interpret the more inclusive passages like 1 Corinthians 15, John 3:16, Romans 10-11 in an exclusive way.
But what if we were to use the more inclusive passages to help us interpret the exclusive passages. To see the wheat and the tares, goats/sheep, Judgment/justice as God's way of redeeming all people.
1 Corinthians 15, Romans 10 and esp Romans 11 talk about Christ having all put under his authority, Christ being All in All, Christ coming for the whole world, (whole world could be interpreted as all individual people), and saving the Jews who don't believe in Christ. So that Christ might do what he came to do...redeem all people but more than that (ta pantes in Greek) all things.
All of this is contingent upon the judgment that brings justice...and what is justice other than setting all things right, and what could be more right than a whole creation with all people reconciled to God?
Thanks for letting me play out this conversation on the blog...
Justin,
Sounds like your bible study is going to be a blast. If I were there, I would ask in regards to Q+A #20, "What are all the blessings of Jesus that I have to accept when I am ingrafted into Christ by faith?"
KD
A reporter once asked Dr. Barth if he could summarize what he had said in his lengthy Church Dogmatics. Dr. Barth thought for a moment and then said: "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so."
This is at times all we can say.....
In the end...the heart of Reformed Theology says that it is up to Jesus....we can debate who..how many...what it takes....but in the end...we have so little power.....
Justin,
I'm praying for you and your church.
Keep up the good fight of faith and let the love of Christ form the words in your mouth!
KD
Justin
You could also ask your class what they think of Susan Atkins and David Berkowitz and Christopher Yuan - all three were (so they say) transformed, forgiven thru Christ Jesus, "born again". Susan was convicted of multiple murders with Charlie Manson in California, and David was convicted of multiple murders as "Son of Sam" in New York. Christopher was imprisoned in Georgia as the major drug dealer southeast USA.
How will your diverse community judge "chiefs of sinners"?
Blessings ><>
One voice that is often left out of discussions is that of persecuted Christians. We get to have such discussions and bible studies without fear of imprisonment or raids or beatings or death. It doesn't make sense that brothers and sisters would endure such suffering if all are saved. What's the point? However if the promises of Christ are sure for those with faith in him then the suffering would be worth it. An approach to this text and topic from the angle of the persecuted Church I believe sheds important light.
Justin:
You asked, "All of this is contingent upon the judgment that brings justice...and what is justice other than setting all things right, and what could be more right than a whole creation with all people reconciled to God?" Basically, will God really send someone to hell if he sets all things right by redeeming all of creation?
Below are some thoughts from Dr. Derek Thomas at: http://www.reformation21.org
"It is a question that came my way recently: will God really condemn good people to hell? And the answer is yes. However, we need to approach the answer with some deliberate sensitivity. First, we need to assert three inviolable truths taught in Scripture:
(1) Hell exists. No matter how distasteful hell may be to think about and talk about, no one spoke about it more than Jesus. Hell, according to Jesus, is a state of eternal, destructive punishment, in which God's punishment is directly experienced. Some Scripture passages of Jesus' include references to hell as a place of weeping and grinding of teeth (Matt. 8:12), of incineration (Matt. 5:22), and torment (Luke 16:23). Appalling? Yes, and it is meant to have that effect upon us - striking with terror at the thought of what could lie ahead outside of God's forgiveness.
(2) Hell is certain for all who reject Jesus Christ. There must be no equivocation here, for Scripture is clear: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (Jn. 14:6); "there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Speculations about what some call "anonymous Christianity" - that people are saved through Christ's work even if they have never heard of him - have no biblical basis whatsoever.
(3) Hell is a just punishment for sin. Low view of sin leads to questioning the appropriateness of such a drastic punishment as hell. "Good" people are sinners. On the scale of sinfulness, some are less sinful than others, nevertheless, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). Truth is, we are all fit for hell unless God's mercy intervenes. We may find this truth harsh, and unremitting. It might offend our civility and sense of worth. But we tamper with Scripture's assessment of the human condition at our peril. To suggest otherwise seriously questions Jesus' competence (he was ignorant of human worth) or morality (knowing otherwise, he continued to frighten us by painting a darker picture than is the case). If Jesus is either of these, he is unworthy of our admiration let alone our faith.
This life's decisions are decisive. And our task as Christians is to proclaim the gospel to our fallen, guilty, hell-bent fellows. As Paul said, "I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish... I am eager to preach the gospel to you also ... For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:14-16). And again in Hebrews: "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27).
It would be nice to think that hell does not exist, or that men and women may avoid it even if they do not have faith in Jesus Christ. But such thoughts are a delusion and, as J. I. Packer writes: "It is really a mercy to mankind that God in Scripture is so explicit about hell."
Justin, I hope this helps as you work through this issue personally and with the flock you serve.
I teach the class in 10 minutes...but a quick response to you Jeremy...again playing Devil's Advocate....
On all three point I can somewhat agree....
But....
to point 2. "At the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess." There will be a time when everyone acknowledges the Lordship of Christ...won't that mean that all will be saved? - All come to the Father through Jesus....
"He descended into Hell." While Hell exists it has no power....
Christ came to offer eternal life now....and in the future.....
Just adding more to think about...
Off to class....
Justin
Justin
The Parable of the Wedding Feast in Matthew 22 might further stir the conversation in your class. Verse 14 is troublesome for those of us who remain behind when unbelieving family members die - "For many are called (or invited), but few are chosen." - and these funerals are seldom "feal-good" ocassions; i certainly prefer the joyous home-going of the saints. Oh yes, Psalm 116:15
Please inform us of the class mood and discussion - you certainly chose a heart-wrenching topic. But a great opportunity to get your diverse group into the Bible.
Blessings ><>
Class went well....good discussion and a lot of interest in the Standards.....will keep you all posted....
Justin